Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

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Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:56 am

This is some price curve: On 23 sept Cypress showed CY8C3866LTI-030ES2 at $8.41 each, but now on Oct 02 they have jumped to $14.75 ?! - over a 75% hike ?
- the only 8 bit Micros with that price point, are the Not-for-new-designs run-out models ?

Are the yields so poor, Cypress do not want these designed in ? ;)

Or is this a typo / 'clerical error' ?

A rather glaring omission has been the lack of any volume price indications - maybe this is why ?
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby toalan2001 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:41 am

What is the source of info? I do not think anything is solid until you see it from a distributor such as digikey or mouser. $14.75 sounds too high to be real, no one in their right mind would pay that much money for PSOC3.
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby nan358 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:44 am

See this page: http://www.cypress.com/?id=2218&shopID=2232
Several ES2 devices are available.

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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby toalan2001 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:21 pm

That is pretty pricey, probably for qty of 100 it will be around $8-$9 which is not too bad considering the C38 is the high end PSOC3 part. But it gets to the price point where buying a AVR/PIC + external ICs looks attractive. PSOC5 stuff must be priced in the $20-$30 range.
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby nan358 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:30 pm

Currently available are ES2 devices. They have many, and some are critical, bugs that are planned to be fixed in the next revision silicon.

Yes they are a little pricier, but as no one would want to buy buggy engineering samples in volume, I guess not many people would care the pricing of them.

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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:14 pm

nan358 wrote: Yes they are a little pricier, but as no one would want to buy buggy engineering samples in volume, I guess not many people would care the pricing of them.


Only those designers using price as an indication of if they should design the parts in !.
(which to me is most potential users...)

If the price is such a "don't care", then why did Cypress bother to change it ?
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby nan358 on Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:48 pm

jmg wrote:If the price is such a "don't care", then why did Cypress bother to change it ?

There can be any reasons for that. Maybe Cypress don't want that "known to be defective" devices to be widely spread. If I were them, I'd want to limit them to be used only by serious customers because my support team will get into serious trouble unless otherwise. Pricing seems to be a choice to do it. By making the price higher, less "serious" customers may think again to have sample devices.

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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby bobby on Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:20 pm

Hey Guys,

Yes, we had the wrong price on the page when the website first went live. Th Cypress Online Store intentionally sells everything at really high prices. We are not trying to take away business from our Distribution Partners. The store is designed for people needing a low number of units for prototype builds, not as their main source for production build parts.

If you look at Digi-Key's website the CY8C29866-24AXI (arguably the largest PSoC 1) has a 1 unit price of $10.75. Their 100 units price drops all the way down to $5.38.

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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:18 pm

Ok, so we follow along that price-logic, and see that Cypress store is appx Digikey's 25+ price.
That indicates a 100+ price for the CY8C3866LTI 64KF 8KR USB device, of ~$12.29

But if we reality check that against a device with FOUR times the RAM, and 4 times the FLASH ?
PSD3454EB40T6 : with 32K RAM 288K FLASH CPLD USB ADC 100+ $9.25230
or, compare with a somewhat more closely matched Code.Ram device
UPSD3422EVB40T6 64KB FLASH 4KR I²C, IrDA, SPI, UART/USART, USB
100 $5.80170

- and these are trailing-process, NFND devices as well !

If we move to a newer-tech device, pitching for new designs, like the MCF51EM256, we have 2-4x FLASH, more SRAM
and LCD, and 16b ADC for a price point of around $3.60/10K ( tho no USB )

or, this topical release [added]
"The new F4xx MCUs are priced between $1.80 and $3.90 for 1K" - 16b ADC, 32KF/1KR thru 120KF/8KR ?

So, can you start to see why that new high price point, might start to make designers re-think the PSoC3 ?

Cypress needs to get some sanity into their price signals.
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby moxbox on Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:43 am

Quick points on the above posting :

UPSD3422EVB40T6 64KB FLASH 4KR I²C, IrDA, SPI, UART/USART, USB (100 piece @ $5.80170 each)


But the PSoC3 also gives you:
- 736 segement LCD driver built-in ($0.50 - $1.50)
-high resolution 20-bit ADC ($2.00 - $2.50)
-4 DACs ($0.50 - $2.00)
-TIA and Opamps ($0.30 - $1.00)
-glue logic and CPLD functionality ($0.50 - $3.00)
-Capacitive Sensing ($0.40 - $1.25)
-flexibility of changing between any of this peripheral mix at compile/run time (? what is that worth to you?)
-cleaner board layout, can change pinout after layout (what is a PCB spin worth to you?)
-all this can run from a single battery cell or a single solar powered cell (full functionality at 0.5Vdc)

Suddenly you are no longer comparing apples to apples.
If you're just comparing CPU/Flash/SRAM - you are missing the point of PSoC3/5,
it's much, much more than just that - it's really System on Chip level integration...

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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:48 pm

Suddenly you are no longer comparing apples to apples.
If you're just comparing CPU/Flash/SRAM - you are missing the point of PSoC3/5,
it's much, much more than just that - it's really System on Chip level integration...


In the commercial world, the bean counters compare NEEDED feature, with NEEDED feature
- we actually have a possible target for a PSoC3, but it has to stand against the price of the
chips it ACTUALLY replaces, not a hypothetical 'might replace in a best case'.

So some real price information from Cypress, really would be useful. What they have given so far,
is not looking good...
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby toalan2001 on Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:10 pm

jmg wrote:
Suddenly you are no longer comparing apples to apples.
If you're just comparing CPU/Flash/SRAM - you are missing the point of PSoC3/5,
it's much, much more than just that - it's really System on Chip level integration...


In the commercial world, the bean counters compare NEEDED feature, with NEEDED feature
- we actually have a possible target for a PSoC3, but it has to stand against the price of the
chips it ACTUALLY replaces, not a hypothetical 'might replace in a best case'.

So some real price information from Cypress, really would be useful. What they have given so far,
is not looking good...


+1

Many of us are willing to pay a premium for the analog and digital blocks but that premium has to be reasonable. If the price of PSOC3 is indeed close to $14.75 that will limit PSOC3 to projects that are able to fully utilize all the digital/analog blocks in order to get a decent return on investment, projects like that are far and few. Most projects might make use of half the analog/digital blocks, PSOC3 still has to be priced somewhat competitive with other solutions for simple projects. PSOC3 has to achieve popularity in order to be successful, the price/development time has to be feasible for a broad range of projects. Not many people would take a chance on PSOC3 if they get spooked by the price right off the bat.
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:08 pm

Another price point just released : Cortex M0 cores (so between the PSoC3 and PSoC5)

8KF/2KR 33pins : LPC1111FHN33/101 at US$0.65/10K
16KF/2KR 33pins : LPC1112FHN33/101 at $0.75
24KF/4KR 33pins : LPC1113FHN33/201 at $0.85
32KF/4KR 33pins : LPC1114FHN33/201 at $0.95

No sign of any 10K price indicators from Cypress yet ?
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:27 pm

I see Mouser now has prices. - which have edged even higher ?!

CY8C3866AXI-040ES2 Pricing (USD) [TQFP100]
53: $21.63
100: $20.55
250: $19.52

Are these prices a valid indicator of the actual expected price point of PSoC3 ?

Given a good CPLD is $3-5 region, and a good uC is sub $2.50, that seems quite a large premium for a single package.
The PSoC5 is going to be even more... :(

or, XMOS 32BIT 400MHz SINGLE CORE, multi threaded
XS1-L01A-TQ128-C4 128TQFP 100+ : US$7.40
XS1-L01A-LQ64-C4 64-LQFP 100+ : US$6.40
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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby gnuarm on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:46 pm

I have always thought that was a fallacy of the PSOC concept. It would be a good idea if the programmable blocks were very inexpensive. Then you could use as many as you want or as little as you want with no impact on your recurring costs. But since the programmablity does bring a premium price, it can only be used in projects where it saves a significant amount of money. On top of that, the original PSOC devices would only support very non-demanding applications.

I have probably mentioned this more than once, but I was told about the PSOC 3/5 devices over two years ago when the sales person told me of how a new PSOC1 development board was shown to the CEO and he asked why a competitor's chip was on it. The designer explained how the PSOC has significant limitations so this was the only way to do the design. The CEO said the new devices would function with "no excuses". So they tried to make the new programmable blocks as highly functional as possible. That also adds to the cost.

Functionality, flexibility, cost... pick two!

Personally, other than for projects with very low end analog demands, I would just as soon have an CM3 CPU with a moderate sized FPGA block on chip. My current design must have external opamp drivers and it must have an external stereo CODEC since none of the PSOC parts will support that. But a decent block of FPGA, maybe 1000 4 input LUTs, would solve a lot of headaches for me. Heck, I could probably make do with 500 LUTs ok as long as it has some other FPGA features such as a decent PLL. Of course, good software is a must too. If Lattice would marry Atmel and combine their SAM3 MCUs with the Lattice XP2 devices, we could get some really awesome devices. But the FPGA company's business model is to pump out the higher end chips to get the big bucks from the telecom companies. The low end stuff is just what they sell as to keep the factories running full speed and help amortize the cost of the software. The MCU companies don't have the infrastructure to support all the software costs required to provide FPGA. Actually, Atmel is very much aware of how hard this is... they sold FPGAs at one time, even combined with an AVR MCU, called the FPSLIC. How many of those made it into designs?

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Re: Cypress hikes PSoC3 prices 75% !?

Postby jmg on Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:43 pm

gnuarm wrote: If Lattice would marry Atmel and combine their SAM3 MCUs with the Lattice XP2 devices, we could get some really awesome devices. But the FPGA company's business model is to pump out the higher end chips to get the big bucks from the telecom companies.


Atmel get close, with their CAP series, which combine ARM cores (tho not yet M3?) with Mask Logic.
That avoids head to head compete with the FPGA specialists, but allows them to pick any products that hit
critical mass. The FPGA vendors must hate this - as the volumes ramp, they lose the 'area under the curve'
customers, and long product lifetimes.

gnuarm wrote:
Actually, Atmel is very much aware of how hard this is... they sold FPGAs at one time, even combined with an AVR MCU, called the FPSLIC. How many of those made it into designs?


yes, FPSlic was not well thought through. : The uC code memory is quite small (because it is ram), and so they have a market _only_ of those who NEED logic just up to a certain size, and code also below a small limit.

The PSoC3 has a well chosen CODE size, and the CPLD logic also looks well-traded-off, with a 12C4 tile.

The only serious blind-spot I've seen, (besides the price indicators!) is they forgot to allow a RAM/ROM mode in the tile ?!.
The RAM _is_ in there, but there is no mode that allows the logic to address the datapath ram, as ram.rom.
Perhaps in the next generation ?

[See MachXO, Actel, SiliconBlue and almost all FPGA's for examples of Ram-tiles]
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